[mkgmap-dev] Garmin learning form OSM (was Re: --make-all-cycleways oddity)

Mon Aug 31 10:23:18 BST 2009

Lambertus wrote:
> Interesting information. Can I ask how you know that Garmin learned from 
> OSM how to make cyclemaps?
>   
Well the latest (I think it came out 4-5 weeks ago) update for the 
onroute cycle map suddenly provided much better routing than anything 
Garmin / Garmin subsidiaries had produced before. Analysing the 
road_class ( road_speed they set equal more or less for all roads) they 
used the same principles as Thilo and me when it comes to prefer 
cycleroutes.
Also they did leave out routing information for motorways (noticing as 
we did that the restrictions don't work 100%). So in effect just like 
Thilo's and my maps, the onroute fietskart has best autorouting when 
used with car/motorcycle setting.

This seems to be a bit of a coincidence why this happens now once that 
once good outdoor autorouting appears they for the first time in over 10 
years of Garmin topographic maps come out with topo maps that actually 
do have usable autorouting. Up to now it was good enough to use it over 
a distance of say max 5 junctions to the next waypoint, so having the 
only advantage of being quicker to create autourouted routes over tracks.

Of course this approach will only work in the netherlands, and in other 
countries they will have big problems getting to the same standards, as 
1. there exist fewer cycleways and 2. they don't have good enough 
attributes available so in the end we at OSM will continue to be able to 
provide maps that get the same standards without using OSM data (which 
luckily they are not allowed to mix with proprietary map data).

Garmin must be well aware off the OSM scene by now. On openmtbmap.org I 
have daily around 500 people downloading maps (Germany alone 100-200 
downloads a day). Computerteddy's maps probabely lead the pack being the 
first ones to be available for any region in Europe. Others also get 
many downloads. On mtb-news.de (the biggest mtb forum worldwide) in the 
GPS section the topic about openmtbmaps has after not yet 5month around 
58.000 hits and 862 comments (compared to 18.000 hits on the topic about 
the Garmin Topo Deutschland v3 which is 2 much older).

I don't have a clue how often the Topo Deutschland v3 is actually sold, 
but I bet that if you exclude users who bought it with their device, and 
exclude users who used a keygen/garmin unlocker to access this map, 
there are more users of OSM Germany maps already.

Of course important decisions at Garmin are taken in the States where 
OSM community is still unimportant, but I am sure that in the course of 
the next year Garmin will react somehow on OSM.
> Some things I learned about the Garmin way of doing business:
> I was on the sideline watching when the Dutch OSM chapter was talking 
> with Waypoint about joining forces and make e.g. cyclemaps using OSM 
> data (they sell more devices and free maps, we get a bigger userbase). 
> But I guess Garmin pulled a string because OSM was suddenly not a 
> possibility anymore.
>   
Yeah I know that many people at Garmin flirted with the idea of dropping 
map creation alltogether because of too many people using keygens to 
crack their maps and too high effort to produce maps. This stopped 
abruptly around 2 month ago.
> I also learned from the owner of my default bikeshop that when he 
> started selling Garmin devices, he was pushed heavily to also sell 
> certain amounts of Garmin maps. The shop owner wanted to be able to 
> advice independently so he stopped selling the devices.
>
> Felix Hartmann wrote:
>   
>> It's nothing special. They are using standard garmin tools AFAICanTell. 
>> They learned from our maps that proper bicycle/topo maps will only 
>> provide good routing if preference is given in general for bicycleroutes.
>>
>> The autorouting is pretty good for cyclists, however because of 2 reasons:
>> 1. their map data quality is very good for normal standards
>> 2. Abundance of cycle routes exist in the netherlands.
>>
>> Making maps for the netherlands is easy, you just put heavy preference 
>> for cycleways and you get great routing. These maps are the first 
>> proprietary maps by Garmin that have good outdoor autorouting. (our 
>> efforts pay off in Garmin working harder/copying from us)
>>
>> Our main problem is as allways with OSM data unconnected streets (though 
>> much less than some month ago as after months of complaints potlatch got 
>> better in this regard), and too sharp turns (this would need to be 
>> solved by preprocessing of osm data befote compiling with mkgmap) .
>> Garmin seems to straighten curvy sections (I know that they do this for 
>> the topo Swiss, which frequently on very curvy small mountain trails 
>> shows too short distance, in my eyes done on purpose so that such routes 
>> are chosen even though garmin gps penalise any curve/corner. This 
>> straightened data is only used in the NOD sections. the ways themselves 
>> as they show on the map are longer than the underlying routing data. I 
>> don't know whether onroute maps have bin built using the same principle, 
>> but this could be well possible.
>>
>> Felix
>>
>> 2009/8/29 Valentijn Sessink <valentyn at blub.net <mailto:valentyn at blub.net>>
>>
>>     Paul Johnson schreef:
>>      > On Sat, 2009-08-29 at 07:29 +0200, Valentijn Sessink wrote:
>>      >> Paul Johnson schreef:
>>      >>> Routing involving cycleways (by bicycle or by car) makes me
>>     wonder why
>>      >>> nobody's bothered getting Garmin's SDK and create new software
>>     for those
>>      >>> units...
>>      >> http://onroute.nl/
>>      >
>>      > What is it?
>>
>>     Sorry for the confusion. I know them for their bicycle map - they have a
>>     motorbike and walking map, too, it seems.
>>
>>     Here's the Babelfish-translation of http://www.onroute.nl/fiets/112,
>>     edited by me to have one meaning. (I didn't fix the computer translation
>>     at all, I just made the meaning of the text clear, it's stil computer
>>     generated English).
>>
>>     "By who were the OnRoute bicycle map developed?
>>
>>     The OnRoute bicycle card were developed by a shop named WayPoint.
>>     WayPoint a shop is, specialised in leisure navigation. Started from the
>>     hobby, but nowadays we have three shops. Beside the main shop in Twentse
>>     Notter, there are two in Moordrecht (Gouda) and Vessem (Eindhoven).
>>
>>     Waypoint sells GPS devices for a lot of years especially for walk and
>>     bicycles. But observed thereby that these devices for many people are
>>     too technical. This is what Waypoint has wanted to change with their
>>     OnRoute bicycle map.
>>
>>     The map was made in association with the Belgian company RouteYou.
>>     RouteYou introduced especially technical mapping knowledge, which it
>>     made possible to connect our "beautiful roads network" to the maps of
>>     TeleAtlas. The conversion to Garmin-kaarten did WayPoint themselves. The
>>     "beautiful roads network" work came about on the basis of several
>>     sources, especially on the basis of the collected tracks of people who
>>     themselves cycled a certain route. Thus the site www.gpstracks.nl
>>     <http://www.gpstracks.nl> have
>>     for example made an important contribution. "
>>
>>     Valentijn
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>>
>>
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